Personally, I like Instapoetry because it is relatable, down to earth and not at all snobby or pretentious. Substack can be the opposite sometimes and it feels like the only way to be accepted as a poet on here is to be published, to have some 'experience' in the poetry world or to be a famous poet, maybe that's just me, but I am slowly getting more and more tired with Substack and the need to 'perform' to be seen, understood and accepted in an ever increasing field, it wasn't like that when I joined, but I am finding myself getting bored trying to fit in... maybe I just need a lie down, but I found your article interesting, thanks for sharing 🤎
I just made myself slow down to read your discussion of this extremely interesting topic.
The fact that I had to make myself “slow down” to read something of that (actually quite modest) length was a reminder to me that Substack and the rest of the online world can get out of hand and relentless, driving us faster and faster to read more and more examples of shorter and shorter content.
The result - constant partial attention and a shallowing out of genuine engagement.
However, at least with Substack - as you say - longer content is encouraged, and the discipline to read it and to think deeply about it rests with the reader. Myself - I am balancing Substack with in depth reading of actual “Books” (for those who remember what books are), just to make sure I don’t lose the capability for sustained concentration and attention…..
Look, basically I agree with everything you say. My perspective on this is perhaps unusual though.
I have written Poetry and short prose all my life, but only in my mid 30’s did I start to feel that I had found my “voice” and that I had work I wanted to share, though getting any of it published was - at least at first - extremely hard. It didn’t help that I was living in a remote area of Central Australia (Alice Springs) and that the Internet was really still in its infancy. (Mid 1990’s).
Eventually, by the early noughties, I had won two (Australian) national poetry awards and a couple of regional gongs as well, and my work was being accepted in literary journals and even a national newspaper. A small boutique poetry press published a small collection of my work. So - publishing success, of sorts.
But the mainstream trad world of poetry publishing was unsatisfying, and the “networking” required felt …. Well. I was not comfortable with it.
So I kept writing but I went “dark.” I stopped publishing and I dropped out of sight for 22 years. I just wrote for myself, and for my wonderful partner.
Then - 6 months ago - my partner discovered Substack and said “Look at this!”
I did just that, and I could see a Poetry community which was reasonably diverse, highly creative, and - mostly - sincere. So I set up my own Substack and started publishing my work - a mix of my previously published back catalogue from long ago, plus other work from my “fuck off I only write for my partner” phase, and brand new work too - some of it published the day it was written.
6 months in, my impressions are:
I had not expected, and I do truly enjoy, the dialogue with other writers, and with people who are mainly readers.
I had not fully understood how beneficial it would be for my own creativity to be back in contact with other Poets, and reading such a wide range of work on a daily basis. My own creativity and productivity has definitely increased as a result.
The numbers game: I see people really “working the room” - but that’s fine. I can engage or not - my choice. Would I love for one of MY poems to go “viral”? Of course! Whoopee! But I’m not holding my breath.
Yep - there is some Poetry here (probably a lot) that just isn’t my thing. If pushed, and inebriated, I might be a bit negative about some of it. But hey - compared to mainstream media - Substack is a Rainforest. I’m happy to wander through the jungle and pick fruit that is right for me.
Will there be a rush of people from other Platforms - as per your essay? I dunno. I’m happy to take your word for it. I never plunged into Insta and I loathed Twitter (even before the Fascist takeover) - so I haven’t seen what was there. But if they come? I agree with you - more water in the tank, more writing, more diversity. Great!
I am loving it here - but I am worried about “Platform Death.” How long will Substack survive, and what will happen if the owners turn Musk or sell to a Musk or a Zuckerberg?
For now - I think it’s a great place for Poetry. I have mixed feelings about mainstream publishing and the trad Poetry “Gatekeepers” - but now that I’m warmed up I’m having a go at that again too, because I accept that self publishing on Substack does run the very real risk of self indulgence, self congratulation and self deception.
Again though - everyone can choose. I choose to be here. I choose to try and mix it with other publishing and 3rd party scrutiny, but everyone can do it their way.
As you wisely say - that’s how Poetry develops.
Is there a Substack sub-genre of Poetry? Not sure - but I am loving the creativity and joy of mixing my Poetry with my photography, and sometimes with my partner’s art work. I’m also enjoying mixing Poetry with prose. My posts on Substack look less and less like a trad poetry collection, and more and more like a mixed media meditation on the themes that engage me. I used to believe the mantra that “a good poem should stand alone” - but I’m walking away from that - fast.
Thanks for the great thought provoking essay, Nelly.
Dave, thanks for such a considered and thought provoking reply. I really appreciate the time you’ve taken to chat. Yes, longer posts appeal to me on here too. And I’m with you on being determined to keep reading plenty of actual books too. I know my attention span is being screwed. I know I need to commit to at least trying to maintain it!
How intriguing that your first foray into publishing had such an impact. That’s really left me thinking. I’m glad substack is bringing some joy. Well done to your partner for that little push in a new direction. For you and the rest of us poetry readers both. I’m concerned about platform death too. Let’s make hay right?!
I’m off to read your work. You are so right. The opportunities for experimentation, the potential for mixed multi media poetry on here is really exciting. You’ve reminded me of that.
Thanks for having the patience to read my rather long reply. After 22+ years of writing privately, but not engaging in publishing or any public discussion of Poetry, I can rave on more than I should. I'm like the Rip van Winkle of Australian Poetry
Great essay Nelly - I think the influx of "new" will be a good thing. The poetry world is impossiby self important sometimes (a sector were horrified at Donna Ashworth being asked to judge a competition!) with an attitude that seems designed to alienate. There are many styles, genres and tastes and by embracing these poetry can become a force for good in this increasingly fractured world.
I have been in most every poetry world... I was a slam poet back in the days of Def Poetry Jam, I got my MFA at NYU and studied with Sharon Olds and Phil Levine, I taught in academia and also as a poet-in-residence in NYC public schools serving students with special needs. I published in journals and have also been an editor for journals, I tried instapoetry and failed pretty well at it, I have submitted to so many book award contests and never won, never published hard cover book... and now I am here. I have really liked Substack.
I have found in every "poetry world" some level of self-importance at times... but as a mother and a seeker, I realize that we are all human, even the poets:).... and wow, the "I'm not good enough so I am gong to hate on you because someone should pay attention to me" bug can get any of us if we are not paying attention.
I really enjoyed reading this Nelly! I was never an “Instapoet”, I only ever used insta for the photos…
But as someone who has tentatively dipped her toe into the substack pool, using poetry as a way to express myself and the complex emotions I’m currently feeling, this was a really interesting read!
It did at one point make me think “oh my god… am I one of these rubbish “insta-type-poets” Nelly is describing”, but then I thought, so what if I am. It doesn’t matter. I write what I feel, and I carefully curate my words before hitting that publish button. They’re not just sloppily scribbled down and thrown out into the world, I craft each line in the hopes that it resonates with someone who may have gone through or felt something similar. And that is what makes me poet. At least in my own head! Aha.
A really thought provoking article. Thanks for sharing!
We can be one together Nadine!! 🤣. I’m pretty sure I’d fit the Insta poet criteria. I say we keep on writing our truths, having fun, connecting with others doing the same, and let the rest figure itself out??? Both writing as poets ❤️❤️❤️
I love this post, Nelly. The hate on ‘Instapoets’ always makes me feel uncomfortable because I really think that it has allowed for a far greater diversity of poets to share their work. I also really enjoy how it has opened up some challenge to the accepted conventions of the poetry canon - it’s made me rethink ‘what is poetry?’ and I think that’s a really powerful question to ask. I also agree with all you say about protecting the craft and acknowledging the skill involved in creating poetry. There’s a lovely opportunity for us to keep the door open to new possibilities in poetry and to new people playing in this space, whilst nurturing our own craft and creating communities to support others in doing the same. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.✨
I’m expecting more diverse fish in this ocean. I’m hoping those who have been restricted by limited space elsewhere will be more expansive, eloquent and experimental. I’m dreading the poetry ecosystem here descending to the level of greeting-cards. But I have very little influence on any of this.
Have you looked at AllPoetry.com? I've been there for a while though don't interact as much as others do. I'm on my second course and there are lots of groups and contests to take part in. I'm curious what you might think about it?
Oh I’ve never used it. I’ve come across it on my internet travels but the website itself never felt very intuitive / appealing. Which I probs shouldn’t have judged it on. I’m gonna take a look with fresh eyes, thank you
I still enjoy reading poetry in books. I have turned my nose down at some instapoetry because I really feel poetry to be a craft. It takes time. I have a poem I've been working on for months. While it's difficult to get published in prominent literary magazines here in Canada, I appreciate that it gives me something to work toward. I really don't think great poetry comes easy. I know what one deemsbgreat may be subjective, but I still think there is a certain standard that poetry should adhere to. That may sound snobby but its not meant that way. All poetry is creative expression that takes time and dedication. It's not for the world that we live in, one that rushes and scrolls to its death. We need all forms of art and poetry more than ever, so we can slow down and take a good look at where we're going and where we've been.
No it doesn’t sound snobby at all. I agree. That’s an angle I didn’t cover actually, that the act of writing poetry does require a slowing down and a patience and that perhaps IF we ‘churn it out’ we might miss that. Which would be a shame. Because oh-my-goodness do we need more of that right now. And I’m the same, I have poems that I’ve written a long time ago and I return to them and still feel they need more time and attention. Corrie commented sharing a quote further down this thread about how the best poetry will remain. That has stuck with me too. Thank you for your considered response x
Poetry wasn’t always elitist. It’s a fantastic way to observe the world and connect with others, as you say. I love the democratisation of poetry through social media. If it means scrolling past some dross sometimes, so what. I’d rather do that than never find any poetry that resonates with me. (Sounds like we’ve had similar journeys, put off for a long time by dead white men! 😁)
I have found good and bad poetry everywhere. Books, stages, online. Or more accurately poetry to my taste and poetry not to my taste in all those forums. And all forms of sharing work is so brave. The risk of comparison and judgement lives in all forms.
I definitely feel icky about AI training too. I read an article somewhere here that it is here too unless your settings are correct. But in the scheme of what AI is stealing from us I would be glad if it has read some poetry but I don't ever want to read it's poetry - that is where I draw my line. (nervously laughs - seriously I am scared of AI.)
Oh I really am too. Yeah I think you do need to change a setting on Substack too. Drives me crazy that you have to opt out as opposed to opt in. Your first line sums it up perfectly, 'poetry to my taste and not to my taste.' That's a good way to look at it isn't it. It's not bad poetry, just "not to my taste".
Poetry (both reading it and the process of writing it) is such a gorgeous and unexpected gift in my life that I can only wish for others to find it. So I welcome the growth here on Substack and the possibility that more people will be inspired to read and/or write poetry. Aaaaand I am 100% with you on this: "I want to keep on creating and sharing my poetry while being absolutely sure I’m not making my art FOR social media. Or saying that, FOR any platform." The risk of growth is that my ego might want to get in on it! But I guess that's just an opportunity to deepen my self-awareness and self-compassion, which is never a bad thing.
I'm not on instagram, well I started an account, but I've never done anything. I love the poetry community here on Substack. I think it's so valuable. And I've read so much wonderful poetry and discovered poets I wouldn't have discovered anywhere else. The more poets here the better, the more poetry the better. We can keep this a kind and engaged community.
Not a big fan of Meta platforms or TikTok but have read some instapoetry and I think it is a valid means of creative expression for people regardless of any personal feelings I might have.
I’m in my second year on Substack and it has a vibrant poetry community with all levels of talent represented. It also features self-appointed gate-keepers that make noises every now and again about how the noble calling of poetry is being diluted and blah blah blah.
I try to tend to my little corner of the garden and try not to trample on others because they grow something different.
I’ve never heard of instapoetry. I am obviously not doing instagram well. I do sort of feel a little protective of the Substack I joined over a year ago, the recent influx of others fleeing twitter, insta, etc feels a little like an invasion. But then it isn’t my Substack and that’s just me being selfish. I am very envious of those that write amazing poetry, the more I read the less I am happy with what I write, but being here keeps me focused.
Personally, I like Instapoetry because it is relatable, down to earth and not at all snobby or pretentious. Substack can be the opposite sometimes and it feels like the only way to be accepted as a poet on here is to be published, to have some 'experience' in the poetry world or to be a famous poet, maybe that's just me, but I am slowly getting more and more tired with Substack and the need to 'perform' to be seen, understood and accepted in an ever increasing field, it wasn't like that when I joined, but I am finding myself getting bored trying to fit in... maybe I just need a lie down, but I found your article interesting, thanks for sharing 🤎
I do think it’s changing fast and we have to figure out where we want to sit within that. And most importantly how we feel using it.
I’m with you, the more unpretentious the better x
I also find substack a bit more exhausting of late. The email model is overwhelming me.
I've turned off the emails but there's just too much to read and Notes sucks you in, I'm getting a little overwhelmed by it too
Hi Nelly
I just made myself slow down to read your discussion of this extremely interesting topic.
The fact that I had to make myself “slow down” to read something of that (actually quite modest) length was a reminder to me that Substack and the rest of the online world can get out of hand and relentless, driving us faster and faster to read more and more examples of shorter and shorter content.
The result - constant partial attention and a shallowing out of genuine engagement.
However, at least with Substack - as you say - longer content is encouraged, and the discipline to read it and to think deeply about it rests with the reader. Myself - I am balancing Substack with in depth reading of actual “Books” (for those who remember what books are), just to make sure I don’t lose the capability for sustained concentration and attention…..
Look, basically I agree with everything you say. My perspective on this is perhaps unusual though.
I have written Poetry and short prose all my life, but only in my mid 30’s did I start to feel that I had found my “voice” and that I had work I wanted to share, though getting any of it published was - at least at first - extremely hard. It didn’t help that I was living in a remote area of Central Australia (Alice Springs) and that the Internet was really still in its infancy. (Mid 1990’s).
My poem “My Big Break” is a sardonic account of that: https://davidkirkby.substack.com/p/my-big-break
Eventually, by the early noughties, I had won two (Australian) national poetry awards and a couple of regional gongs as well, and my work was being accepted in literary journals and even a national newspaper. A small boutique poetry press published a small collection of my work. So - publishing success, of sorts.
But the mainstream trad world of poetry publishing was unsatisfying, and the “networking” required felt …. Well. I was not comfortable with it.
So I kept writing but I went “dark.” I stopped publishing and I dropped out of sight for 22 years. I just wrote for myself, and for my wonderful partner.
Then - 6 months ago - my partner discovered Substack and said “Look at this!”
I did just that, and I could see a Poetry community which was reasonably diverse, highly creative, and - mostly - sincere. So I set up my own Substack and started publishing my work - a mix of my previously published back catalogue from long ago, plus other work from my “fuck off I only write for my partner” phase, and brand new work too - some of it published the day it was written.
6 months in, my impressions are:
I had not expected, and I do truly enjoy, the dialogue with other writers, and with people who are mainly readers.
I had not fully understood how beneficial it would be for my own creativity to be back in contact with other Poets, and reading such a wide range of work on a daily basis. My own creativity and productivity has definitely increased as a result.
The numbers game: I see people really “working the room” - but that’s fine. I can engage or not - my choice. Would I love for one of MY poems to go “viral”? Of course! Whoopee! But I’m not holding my breath.
Yep - there is some Poetry here (probably a lot) that just isn’t my thing. If pushed, and inebriated, I might be a bit negative about some of it. But hey - compared to mainstream media - Substack is a Rainforest. I’m happy to wander through the jungle and pick fruit that is right for me.
Will there be a rush of people from other Platforms - as per your essay? I dunno. I’m happy to take your word for it. I never plunged into Insta and I loathed Twitter (even before the Fascist takeover) - so I haven’t seen what was there. But if they come? I agree with you - more water in the tank, more writing, more diversity. Great!
I am loving it here - but I am worried about “Platform Death.” How long will Substack survive, and what will happen if the owners turn Musk or sell to a Musk or a Zuckerberg?
For now - I think it’s a great place for Poetry. I have mixed feelings about mainstream publishing and the trad Poetry “Gatekeepers” - but now that I’m warmed up I’m having a go at that again too, because I accept that self publishing on Substack does run the very real risk of self indulgence, self congratulation and self deception.
Again though - everyone can choose. I choose to be here. I choose to try and mix it with other publishing and 3rd party scrutiny, but everyone can do it their way.
As you wisely say - that’s how Poetry develops.
Is there a Substack sub-genre of Poetry? Not sure - but I am loving the creativity and joy of mixing my Poetry with my photography, and sometimes with my partner’s art work. I’m also enjoying mixing Poetry with prose. My posts on Substack look less and less like a trad poetry collection, and more and more like a mixed media meditation on the themes that engage me. I used to believe the mantra that “a good poem should stand alone” - but I’m walking away from that - fast.
Thanks for the great thought provoking essay, Nelly.
Best wishes from Australia
Dave :)
Dave, thanks for such a considered and thought provoking reply. I really appreciate the time you’ve taken to chat. Yes, longer posts appeal to me on here too. And I’m with you on being determined to keep reading plenty of actual books too. I know my attention span is being screwed. I know I need to commit to at least trying to maintain it!
How intriguing that your first foray into publishing had such an impact. That’s really left me thinking. I’m glad substack is bringing some joy. Well done to your partner for that little push in a new direction. For you and the rest of us poetry readers both. I’m concerned about platform death too. Let’s make hay right?!
I’m off to read your work. You are so right. The opportunities for experimentation, the potential for mixed multi media poetry on here is really exciting. You’ve reminded me of that.
I’d like to do that more. Thank you
Good morning Nelly (Well - it's 6:00 am here).
Thanks for having the patience to read my rather long reply. After 22+ years of writing privately, but not engaging in publishing or any public discussion of Poetry, I can rave on more than I should. I'm like the Rip van Winkle of Australian Poetry
Very best wishes from Australia - Dave :)
Great essay Nelly - I think the influx of "new" will be a good thing. The poetry world is impossiby self important sometimes (a sector were horrified at Donna Ashworth being asked to judge a competition!) with an attitude that seems designed to alienate. There are many styles, genres and tastes and by embracing these poetry can become a force for good in this increasingly fractured world.
YES, exactly. I really hope so.
I have been in most every poetry world... I was a slam poet back in the days of Def Poetry Jam, I got my MFA at NYU and studied with Sharon Olds and Phil Levine, I taught in academia and also as a poet-in-residence in NYC public schools serving students with special needs. I published in journals and have also been an editor for journals, I tried instapoetry and failed pretty well at it, I have submitted to so many book award contests and never won, never published hard cover book... and now I am here. I have really liked Substack.
I have found in every "poetry world" some level of self-importance at times... but as a mother and a seeker, I realize that we are all human, even the poets:).... and wow, the "I'm not good enough so I am gong to hate on you because someone should pay attention to me" bug can get any of us if we are not paying attention.
This reply gave me goosebumps Corie. Thank you x
I really enjoyed reading this Nelly! I was never an “Instapoet”, I only ever used insta for the photos…
But as someone who has tentatively dipped her toe into the substack pool, using poetry as a way to express myself and the complex emotions I’m currently feeling, this was a really interesting read!
It did at one point make me think “oh my god… am I one of these rubbish “insta-type-poets” Nelly is describing”, but then I thought, so what if I am. It doesn’t matter. I write what I feel, and I carefully curate my words before hitting that publish button. They’re not just sloppily scribbled down and thrown out into the world, I craft each line in the hopes that it resonates with someone who may have gone through or felt something similar. And that is what makes me poet. At least in my own head! Aha.
A really thought provoking article. Thanks for sharing!
We can be one together Nadine!! 🤣. I’m pretty sure I’d fit the Insta poet criteria. I say we keep on writing our truths, having fun, connecting with others doing the same, and let the rest figure itself out??? Both writing as poets ❤️❤️❤️
I cosign this Nadine!
I love this post, Nelly. The hate on ‘Instapoets’ always makes me feel uncomfortable because I really think that it has allowed for a far greater diversity of poets to share their work. I also really enjoy how it has opened up some challenge to the accepted conventions of the poetry canon - it’s made me rethink ‘what is poetry?’ and I think that’s a really powerful question to ask. I also agree with all you say about protecting the craft and acknowledging the skill involved in creating poetry. There’s a lovely opportunity for us to keep the door open to new possibilities in poetry and to new people playing in this space, whilst nurturing our own craft and creating communities to support others in doing the same. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.✨
Yes, I think so. I hope so x
I’m expecting more diverse fish in this ocean. I’m hoping those who have been restricted by limited space elsewhere will be more expansive, eloquent and experimental. I’m dreading the poetry ecosystem here descending to the level of greeting-cards. But I have very little influence on any of this.
Hoping the same. Expansive, experimental and eloquent. Yes!!!!
Have you looked at AllPoetry.com? I've been there for a while though don't interact as much as others do. I'm on my second course and there are lots of groups and contests to take part in. I'm curious what you might think about it?
Oh I’ve never used it. I’ve come across it on my internet travels but the website itself never felt very intuitive / appealing. Which I probs shouldn’t have judged it on. I’m gonna take a look with fresh eyes, thank you
You're right about it not looking great or being very intuitive but it gets easier the more you look around.
I still enjoy reading poetry in books. I have turned my nose down at some instapoetry because I really feel poetry to be a craft. It takes time. I have a poem I've been working on for months. While it's difficult to get published in prominent literary magazines here in Canada, I appreciate that it gives me something to work toward. I really don't think great poetry comes easy. I know what one deemsbgreat may be subjective, but I still think there is a certain standard that poetry should adhere to. That may sound snobby but its not meant that way. All poetry is creative expression that takes time and dedication. It's not for the world that we live in, one that rushes and scrolls to its death. We need all forms of art and poetry more than ever, so we can slow down and take a good look at where we're going and where we've been.
No it doesn’t sound snobby at all. I agree. That’s an angle I didn’t cover actually, that the act of writing poetry does require a slowing down and a patience and that perhaps IF we ‘churn it out’ we might miss that. Which would be a shame. Because oh-my-goodness do we need more of that right now. And I’m the same, I have poems that I’ve written a long time ago and I return to them and still feel they need more time and attention. Corrie commented sharing a quote further down this thread about how the best poetry will remain. That has stuck with me too. Thank you for your considered response x
thank you for this 💗
Great read!
Poetry wasn’t always elitist. It’s a fantastic way to observe the world and connect with others, as you say. I love the democratisation of poetry through social media. If it means scrolling past some dross sometimes, so what. I’d rather do that than never find any poetry that resonates with me. (Sounds like we’ve had similar journeys, put off for a long time by dead white men! 😁)
I have found good and bad poetry everywhere. Books, stages, online. Or more accurately poetry to my taste and poetry not to my taste in all those forums. And all forms of sharing work is so brave. The risk of comparison and judgement lives in all forms.
I definitely feel icky about AI training too. I read an article somewhere here that it is here too unless your settings are correct. But in the scheme of what AI is stealing from us I would be glad if it has read some poetry but I don't ever want to read it's poetry - that is where I draw my line. (nervously laughs - seriously I am scared of AI.)
Oh I really am too. Yeah I think you do need to change a setting on Substack too. Drives me crazy that you have to opt out as opposed to opt in. Your first line sums it up perfectly, 'poetry to my taste and not to my taste.' That's a good way to look at it isn't it. It's not bad poetry, just "not to my taste".
Poetry (both reading it and the process of writing it) is such a gorgeous and unexpected gift in my life that I can only wish for others to find it. So I welcome the growth here on Substack and the possibility that more people will be inspired to read and/or write poetry. Aaaaand I am 100% with you on this: "I want to keep on creating and sharing my poetry while being absolutely sure I’m not making my art FOR social media. Or saying that, FOR any platform." The risk of growth is that my ego might want to get in on it! But I guess that's just an opportunity to deepen my self-awareness and self-compassion, which is never a bad thing.
I'm not on instagram, well I started an account, but I've never done anything. I love the poetry community here on Substack. I think it's so valuable. And I've read so much wonderful poetry and discovered poets I wouldn't have discovered anywhere else. The more poets here the better, the more poetry the better. We can keep this a kind and engaged community.
Not a big fan of Meta platforms or TikTok but have read some instapoetry and I think it is a valid means of creative expression for people regardless of any personal feelings I might have.
I’m in my second year on Substack and it has a vibrant poetry community with all levels of talent represented. It also features self-appointed gate-keepers that make noises every now and again about how the noble calling of poetry is being diluted and blah blah blah.
I try to tend to my little corner of the garden and try not to trample on others because they grow something different.
I’ve never heard of instapoetry. I am obviously not doing instagram well. I do sort of feel a little protective of the Substack I joined over a year ago, the recent influx of others fleeing twitter, insta, etc feels a little like an invasion. But then it isn’t my Substack and that’s just me being selfish. I am very envious of those that write amazing poetry, the more I read the less I am happy with what I write, but being here keeps me focused.